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Podcast Hosts: Two terms caught my attention and I want to ask you about them. In your thesis you speak, in quotes, of a modified hormonal regulation in the grape, if I understood correctly, and an inhibition of degradation enzymes. To get properly technical here, what does that mean?
Well, we talked earlier about those berries that are smaller because the skins are thicker and harder. In fact, we tried to map the whole metabolism of the textural ripening of the berry at different scales. So we analyzed the hormones that trigger ripening, notably the auxin to abscisic acid ratio. And we see more auxin in the berry, as if ripening were slightly delayed.
These hormones are linked to the cell-wall degradation enzymes: when berries ripen, the wall breaks down to let the fruit swell, and there are enzymes that do that degrading. So we saw that certain degradation enzymes are inhibited under biodynamics.
Then we went on to ultrastructure studies of the skin. We cut the skin, make cross-sections, and observe the thickness of the cell walls, and we saw that they were thicker. And then, at the macro scale, when we do penetrometry studies, for example, we see that these berries are harder.
So all these building blocks of the same metabolism point in the same direction and show that a hormonal regulation can affect enzyme activity and so show up in macroscopic characteristics.
And these same berries are more resistant to pathogens like botrytis.
We haven’t studied the effect on heat spikes [Pam’s note: others have], but I think it would be interesting to see whether these harder skins can also withstand heatwaves like the ones we’re living through this year.
Climate change, adaptation and water
Let’s talk about that. It’s time to talk about global warming and heatwaves. How do you approach the coming years, and how are you preparing the ground, as a specialist in biodynamics?
It’s a very difficult subject. I’m a bit eco-anxious at the moment, but we mustn’t fall into panic.
I think the definition of sustainability is to analyze risks so you can put action plans in place and anticipate a future. That’s how we’re working on this subject. We’re analyzing the risks for our vineyards, but also for our staff. So there are action plans to mitigate stress, whether heat or water stress. That means reducing the vine’s leaf area, having shadier canopies, covering our soils or destroying cover crops earlier. Those are all aspects we’re looking at.
The presence of trees in the plots, having more shade, and so on.
Do you have experimental plots with all of this?
Yes, absolutely. We can also mention plant material.
We have experimental plots with different types of rootstocks, different varieties, and our massal-selection vines, which could be an asset for the future.
And then, as I said, there is mitigation, and there is the irrigation side.
Today irrigation is a bit like biodynamics: it’s becoming a very controversial subject.
I think that as technicians we have a duty to diagnose the vine’s needs and to study our water resources, surface and underground, so as not to make mistakes. That way, if tomorrow we’re forced to play that card, we do it intelligently, meeting the vine’s needs so as to irrigate properly, respecting the resources, with water available, without affecting the ecosystem around us. So those are all subjects we’re exploring.
And in any case, we have to move forward that way.
We’re at the start of this exploration.
Do you think that in a few years you’ll have conclusive results, and that you could extend these experimental plots to the other plots? What’s the timescale: a year, two years, ten years?
For example, our rootstock plots were planted in 2023 at Duhart-Milan, and in 2025 at our other Domaine, and at Château Rieussec. The massal-selection plot was planted in 2023–2024. So these are very young plots, and I think you have to wait at least ten years. You know, scientists like replication. So at least ten years before we have results, which we’ll gladly share.
And today we have a very good collective of estates: the Olivier de Serres Chair, run by the ISVV, which connects, notably, the estates of the Club des Neuf, to share all the results of this kind of trial across the different châteaux.
The Club des Neuf, a quick parenthesis: we should explain what it is.
The Club des Neuf is a collective for scientific reflection made up of nine classified grands crus from the Médoc, Pessac-Léognan, Sauternes and the Right Bank.
You pool resources to work on all these subjects.
To fund research, exactly.
At the ISVV.
Exactly, for this Olivier de Serres Chair.
I’d pick up on something you said about irrigation. You consider that, even though water is such a scarce resource, and will become more so, irrigation could still be a solution for the viticulture of the future? You, who practice biodynamics?
There are two subjects. There is the purely scientific subject of the vine’s water needs, and there I put on my scientist’s cap: we have to explore it.
And there is an ethical question: do we want to use water to make wine?
On that second aspect, it’s not for me to rule. But on the first, if we don’t do this diagnosis, we’ll make mistakes. So in any case it has to be explored.
What’s important to understand is that we’re not at all in the same orders of magnitude.
With mitigation, we’ll gain a few millimeters of evapotranspiration.
But with the heatwaves we’ve had, the vine today is at 7 millimeters of evapotranspiration a day. So with a soil water reserve of 90 millimeters, after a week there’s no water left in the soil. So it’s not reducing leaf area, or changing variety, or all of that combined, that will meet the order of magnitude we need. But the decision hasn’t been made, and I think it’s company leaders in particular who have to ask themselves these questions.
In any case, it’s very likely the vine will suffer more, and so its lifespan will also shorten, or at least be affected. And you can already see that.
We’re seeing entire vineyards where the leaves and bunches are scorched, with tiny berries. We’ll see what the impact on yields will be, but today, yes, we see a vineyard that is suffering.
And one that structurally could see its yields fall.
César, do you want to zoom out to the scale of Bordeaux? I know you, and I know you’re thinking, yes, but how will everyone manage?
Yes, that’s it. What Manuela is telling us is very specialized, and obviously very interesting. Remember there are 4,500 winegrowers in the Gironde. But the good news is that Lafite will share its results, I imagine, through the ISVV. It’s open to everyone, so that’s already an important point.
I also think water thinking has to be done at a collective scale, at the scale of watersheds, whose size remains to be defined.
It’s a bit like thinking in agroecology: at some point you have to go and see your neighbor to plant hedges that connect. So I think it’s not a Château Lafite subject, it’s a collective subject. So of course, if we can contribute at the scale of a territory to smart thinking, we will. What’s certain is that we may return to the essentials, to the most qualitative, most resilient terroirs. That may be a change. We may also return to the bocage landscape, with lots of hedges separating our plots: smaller plots, but surrounded by hedges to lower temperatures and manage our water better. So yes, the wine landscape will change. But I don’t have an answer to how we’ll do it. If I did, I’d feel better.
When you talk about returning to the essentials, Mathieu, there’s a point we haven’t addressed, I realize, and which is often raised by anyone interested in biodynamics. Tell us about the influence of the stars.
The Moon, small farms and where to start
We didn’t mention it earlier. We talked about soil, we talked about preparations, but the other element people have in mind is that I do my treatments and activities according to the lunar cycles. All very serious, of course.
Well, the Moon and lunar cycles: there are nine, there are many lunar cycles. We only see one, but there are actually several, and they all overlap.
So for a scientist, working on the effect of the Moon is very complicated, because you can never fix certain parameters. That makes it difficult. On the other hand, the examples everyone mentions, the tides, the effects on water, on women, show that the Moon can have effects on a natural environment, and you can’t deny that. There are also studies on tree-trunk diameter and on sap rise as a function of the Moon. Some studies exist.
At Château L’Évangile, for example, my colleague Juliette Couderc realized empirically that the lees settle more or less compactly depending on the lunar cycle. So today she enjoys waiting for a specific lunar cycle to rack the wine in order to get more compact lees. So I think we shouldn’t neglect these empirical observations in biodynamic knowledge.
And the biodynamic winegrower observes these cycles more than a conventional winegrower, right?
Exactly, they’re supposed to observe.
I think that’s one of the things that make biodynamics work: the human being, once again, is more present in the vineyard and observes more.
As for saying you have to work, or prune, according to the lunar cycle alone, that’s very hard in our businesses, because otherwise we’d never prune.
So at some point you also have to set certain cycles aside. That’s what we do at Lafite. Our biodynamics is non-dogmatic. If we can’t follow the lunar cycle, we don’t.
Take the time of day: normally you should apply silica very early and horn manure very late in the day. But we apply them when our vineyard workers arrive on site. So, as I said earlier, you have to adapt these practices, step away from the recipe a bit, and say, let’s do something pragmatic. And if I can’t follow the lunar cycle, I can’t.
There is the ideal biodynamics of the books, and there is the biodynamics of a property’s day-to-day life.
Exactly. And I come back to this path of knowledge. Good biodynamics is the biodynamics that fits each person, each estate, each organization.
And all this can be done on a small property of 20 or 30 hectares, by a small team. It’s all possible on a small property with few staff.
I think it’s even easier. It is costly, and in today’s difficult context there’s an extra cost. It isn’t enormous, but there is one.
For example, the L’Évangile vineyard in Pomerol is about twenty hectares. There, it’s the managers who apply the preparations; they can spend a few hours applying the plants themselves, and so on.
So I think it’s easier in small vineyards than in large ones like Lafite, which is around a hundred hectares, where we have to mechanize the application of the preparations and count on our workers’ schedules. That requires different logistics, and you have to a bit...
You’ll tell me it’s contradictory, but it means industrializing these methods a little. Because otherwise, on large areas, you couldn’t do it. And the biggest example is the biodynamics practiced in Australia, with big tractors, or drones, or passes...
You see, every scale is possible, but again, you have to adapt.
And in Australia, biodynamics is very advanced?
Yes, and there is...
Is it a country that’s something of a leader on the subject?
Yes, they took an interest in it. And there’s Alex Podolinsky, who even adapted one of the preparations, number 500. He created a preparation called 500P. He’s the one who brought 500P to Europe and other countries. So today it is considered a biodynamic preparation, and he worked on biodynamics at large scale.
Because the preparations are named by numbers.
Yes, that’s right. Either you call it silica or 500 for horn manure and 501 for horn silica.
I put myself in the place of winegrowers listening to you who are certified neither Demeter nor Biodyvin. Demeter is worldwide, the Australians; Biodyvin is French, right? They aren’t certified. They would simply be interested in the practice. They won’t go looking for certification right away. What advice would you give them to at least start experimenting? What should they do first?
You have to know whether you have the means to do it. Again, the preparations would be the icing on the cake. But I think that, without seeking certification and without applying the preparations, there’s already a reflection to have on this interconnected farm, on biodiversity, on coherence, on the presence of the human being. All of that depends so much on the farm in question. But I think that’s what you do first. And if that coherence doesn’t exist, you may as well not apply the preparations.
So it’s a conviction, at the start.
It’s a conviction, a presence, an observation, a desire to experiment. A desire to bring biodiversity back to our farms. Then, the word ferme (farm) etymologically means “to close” [fermer], which is a bit contradictory with biodynamics too. But you see what we mean: this agroecological unity. That’s what you have to work on.
Wine quality and the future of Bordeaux
Then there’s a final question, or at least final in the line of reasoning. All this work is done, it’s costly, and so on. In the end, are the wines of better quality?
Scientifically, I can’t answer you, because my thesis didn’t focus solely on wine quality. But what I can tell you is that we’ve been practicing biodynamics on these plots for 10 years, and we vinify the organic and the biodynamic separately.
This is a plot that has always gone into the Grand Vin, and biodynamics hasn’t stopped the wine from going into Lafite’s Grand Vin, given the standards we apply in selecting wines for the blend.
So already we can see there’s no loss of quality. Then, during my thesis, we compared the wines, and we saw that when the wines are very young, there is a difference the tasting panel can perceive. We can’t say which descriptor discriminates, but a difference exists. When the wines age and have 18 months in bottle, that difference is no longer perceptible.
[Pam’s note: See also the wide ranging study from two French wine economists here.]
Is it clearer to a taster?
The difference is clearer… But we can’t yet say which descriptor changes, and I didn’t dwell on it since it wasn’t the subject of my thesis.
We have hypotheses, since I told you about that very different grape skin. We saw that in the wines there are also polysaccharides linked to the skin, and these polysaccharides are different. And you know, wine is a colloidal matrix in which these polysaccharides interact with the tannins.
We wonder whether, with time in the bottle, these colloids stabilize, so that in the end the difference is no longer perceptible. So today one of my great wishes is to get into the wine, into the different metabolisms we’ve discussed, to understand what’s going on. Today I have few elements, but in any case the quality is unchanged.
OK. And perhaps even improved; at least that’s the hope.
If the grape is in better health, I hope that will be the case. And the vine, of course.
Staying with a little manual of biodynamics, if you will, because beyond the effectiveness you describe, I find it also very poetic.
At Lafite you are, in quotes, I believe, fans of the oats, vetch and clover mix. What is it? How does it work? What is it for?
Oats, vetch and clover is a mix we use for sowing, so it’s more about cover crops. We have indeed experimented with this mix and we continue to, since a blend of cereals and legumes is interesting for our soils. That doesn’t mean it’s the best mix. You always have to adapt the mix to the soils. It doesn’t mean you must always sow. Sometimes natural cover can be more interesting. But in any case, we’ve tested this mix for our soils. But we do use herbal teas, too.
Isn’t that the same thing?
Not at all. It’s like the herbal tea you drink in the evening, chamomile or verbena. We make herbal teas that we apply at Lafite every time we do a phytosanitary treatment. So we put a plant tea inside. And yes, we do it in the same tank.
The copper and the plant tea.
Exactly. And again, we have a protocol of our own. We like to alternate between horsetail, willow and nettle. These are three plants that are very rich in silica; nettle is also very rich in nitrogen and iron. We can combine these three plants, which are a bit like the skeleton of our protocols, with plants such as chamomile, calendula and dandelion, depending on the weather conditions.
A very open question now. French, Bordeaux viticulture is going through a terrible crisis. What is your vision of the wine of the future, or of the future of wine?
We analyze our risks. Climate risks are the biggest for us today at the vineyard level. There are environmental risks, impacts on our ecosystems. There are also market risks. There are digital risks. All of that coexists.
And we do have to adapt our practices to those risks.
How do we see the viticulture of tomorrow? I believe a lot in the notion of robustness. I’m a big fan of Olivier Hamant, who contrasts performance with robustness. I think we have to put in place action plans that let us be not performant but robust.
So today, the rise of the great Bordeaux wines may be less strong in the future, but maybe we’ll become more robust and get through crises more serenely. So it’s back to the essentials: biodiversity.
Today we talk a lot about reducing carbon impact. That’s important, certainly, but introducing biodiversity is paramount if we want to reduce carbon.
I also believe a lot in a certain autonomy for vineyards. Because tomorrow, if we don’t have access to fertilizers or oil, we need to be fairly autonomous. And then, on the markets, I think we’ll reach some kind of regulation, one way or another, with more French consumption, and with the great wines continuing to export. But again, I don’t have a magic wand. It’s very hard to answer that question.
I know you love wine and that you’re a wine lover. And that’s a point that often interests us here, Mathieu and me. The taste of Bordeaux wine, with everything you’re telling us, in 15 or 20 years: what will it be? Less alcohol, more? Tannins that may be a problem for new generations?
If you imagine the wine of Lafite, it will be superb, I don’t doubt that for a second. But in general, how do you see the wine of tomorrow? How do you see the taste of tomorrow’s wine?
Well, for 15 to 20 years, I think we’re lucky to have the best-adapted grape variety in France, and in the world: Cabernet Sauvignon. I think that saves us.
On the experimental plot we planted, we’re not planning to change grape variety in 20 years. We’re considering it a little later, because we know very well that Cabernet Sauvignon gives us room to maneuver. So in the Médoc, at least, we’re fairly protected on that front. I think we’re doing a lot of work on gentler extractions.
So in fact we have a bit less tannin. I think we’re also working to harvest a little earlier. We made a 2025 at 12.5%, which is very low in alcohol.
So I think in the Médoc we’re fairly protected.
In Pomerol, we have the two extremes within the group: at Château L’Évangile in Pomerol, we do ask ourselves the question of changing varieties.
Merlot is in danger?
Well, I don’t think so. I think Merlot, on certain terroirs, still has a lot to say. On others, though, it struggles.
At Château L’Évangile we planted a little Cabernet Sauvignon, for example. And in discussion with Kees van Leeuwen of the ISVV, we talked about the typicity of the wine. I told him, but Kees, if we plant Cabernet Sauvignon in Pomerol, we’ll lose the typicity. And he said, but Manuela, is an overripe Merlot the typicity of Pomerol from a few years ago? I don’t think so. So maybe it’s better to change the variety and recover freshness and gentler tannins than to have an overripe, over-extracted wine.
Everything has to change so that nothing changes.
Exactly.
The Leopard.
The Leopard.
Thank you, Manuela de Lachapelle. I’m very happy. We cited Olivier Hamant and the concept of robustness in this podcast, which is a first. Doubly thank you. Biodiversity, observation, presence, coherence in the interconnected farm.
Thank you, César. Thank you, Manuela de Lachapelle. Thank you, everyone.
We’ll meet again soon for a new episode. Thank you also for listening to our podcasts. Don’t hesitate to send us messages or comments. Find all our episodes on www.sudouest.fr. So you don’t miss the next ones, subscribe on Deezer, Spotify, iTunes or Google Podcasts. Until then, take care, and remember: the best wine isn’t necessarily the most expensive, but the one you share with moderation and responsibility.
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