I’ve been a huge fan of Agrology’s work in the past so I wanted to check in Dana Revallo, head of customer success, on the latest developments. Here is our interview: 

So what’s the newest and latest at Agrology?

Dana: This past week, Agrology just released our AI Agronomist.

We’ve moved from just measuring soil health and reading a field’s whole carbon and water story to letting growers ask questions about the data we’re collecting in plain English.

It’s really amazing because our system takes measurements – like 17 different data inputs…Everything from soil moisture, use efficiency, field capacity, to the more environmental metrics and microclimate, like canopy humidity, vapor pressure deficit, heat stress, and then also like photosynthetic hours, photosynthetic efficiency, and then whether your field is absorbing carbon or emitting carbon.

We’ve been working on this for the past 18 months and done a soft release to some of our existing customers.

PHOTO - SEE SUBSTACK FOR THE Sample of the new AI agent from Agrology

Well, let’s back up a bit - how’s it going? What are you finding after five years in business?

We have been measuring carbon for three years. The previous two years before that was more ground truth microclimate and environmental metrics.

PHOTO Agrology sensors in the field

And can you just briefly describe the technology?

We measure carbon through a soil chamber, measuring respiration and the microbial life and and root exudation, so basically like a Haney test in real time. And then we use a carbon gradient mast similar to an Eddy covariance tower. These Eddy towers are out of reach for a lot of small and mid-sized growers because of the cost. It costs typically like $200,000, and then you need someone with a postgraduate degree to decipher the data and do all the gap filling.

PHOTO Demo at Robert Hall winery in Paso Robles which conducted a major study on regenerative versus conventional grape growing using Agrology sensors to document changes based on soil health.

So, what are people using that data for?

We’re using that data to show whether your regenerative practices are actually moving the needle and increase soil health and crop quality.

It’s really important for all of our vineyard customers. Because we can show through that, through measuring the carbon cycle, we can show when a vine is actively photosynthesizing. So, for example, if we have like a really big heat dome or some kind of heat wave, a lot of times when the temperatures reach 95 degrees, the vine will actually shut down because it can’t photosynthesize.

But sometimes treatments can increase the vine’s resilience to continually photosynthesize, transpire moisture, and cool the canopy based on treatments.

Like if you’re going no-till or keeping a ground cover, the ground cover can keep the the overall temperature in that block a few degrees cooler.

If there was a heat wave, you can show what blocks are shutting down and which ones are not, and then that allows you to apply irrigation proactively instead of reactively. So even if you don’t have overhead sprinklers, you can turn on the irrigation during a heat dome, and then that water will reach the vine, and then also just the evaporative cooling from the moisture, evaporating from the soil can help cool the canopy down as well.

What crops do you work on?

We work on everything from blueberries to silage, corn, and soy in the Midwest.

A lot of growers are moving away from more synthetic, salt-based fertilizers and incorporating more biology because they’re really seeing that can create resilience and increased yields in their crops as well.

We also work in a number of different grazing systems as well, measuring the carbon cycle and benefits of rotational grazing. We work in orchards and a lot of potatoes actually, too, up in Idaho and Washington.

How did you and why did you develop this new AI function?

The farmer can ask what our sensors are reading and then create different management decisions in real time. It answers questions about their data, and then the grower and agronomist can make the call as to what’s working and what’s not.

And is it voice activated or you have to type?

It’s currently a text interface.

Are people using it with other agents?

They can. We do have an open API, so we can incorporate other sensor data into our chat interface, so we can pull on that data. You can also upload other soil tests like micro and macronutrients, Haney tests, and it can digest all that data. Then it pulls all of the scientific peer-reviewed studies.

A lot of the measurements that are used in the scientific literature were all measured using gas flux, like Eddy covariance towers. So now we can incorporate direct measurement from these small growers and access all of the peer reviewed studies, so that growers can see how their their crop and and soil data are comparing to these other other studies.

Well, that sounds pretty amazing. Has the market been asking for this?

I feel like we work with some of the most talented grape growers, vineyard managers and farmers in the country, but a lot of the tools that they’ve been using are not able to give them the data they need in real time.

A lot of times when they’re sending using Haney tests or soil samples, they’re taking the sample, they’re sending it in, and they’re waiting four or five weeks before they get that data back.

So when growers are, or even fertilizer companies are, are trialing application rates and new amendments, new biological stimulants in their crops, they can see the results in real time.

And what does that enable?

That enables them to see if if a product is working during that season and not have to wait until the season’s end to make a decision for the next year.

Do you see them doing a lot more on farm experiments or trials?

100%. Yeah, we were working with a potato grower up in in Idaho, where they were trialing two different biological amendments, living biology, and what we saw was that the control field they were using actually started out with higher soil health metrics.

Prior to the biology being applied, the control field was already outcompeting the trial field. But within 45 days, we saw that the trial field actually overcome the control and created major benefits, and then the yields that we calculated at the end also reflected that.

So, when you say major benefits, what benefits are you looking at aside from yield?

The photosynthetic hours and the canopy CO2 drawdown. The treated crops were photosynthesizing longer throughout the day.

It was a really hot summer up in Idaho, and so we saw the control field shutting down, and the potatoes were stopping photosynthesizing while the treated fields could continue absorbing carbon and transpiring moisture, cooling their canopy, and then that resulted in not only higher yield but higher yield of quality potatoes that were large enough to sell.

So I’m curious, who are your clients both inside and outside of the wine world.

I think people were pretty psyched just to be able to get the data, but we don’t really know much about how they use the data. And then, of course, in the wine world, we have all the regenerative and organic people who are maybe more actively looking for tools like this? Can you fill me in?

Well, especially with input costs rising so much, growers are under a lot of pressure to make sure that what they’re applying is getting an ROI.

We’re working with different input providers and farmers who are paying for these inputs. Sometimes they’re $20 an acre, sometimes they’re $100 an acre, and sometimes the $20 an acre one actually does better than the more expensive one.

And are you seeing any correlations with nutrient density?

That’s a great question. We haven’t worked specifically with anyone like with Edacious. I really love what what Edacious is doing. We haven’t necessarily worked with nutrient density, but a lot of our vineyard customers are doing juice samples, looking at tannins and polyphenols and Brix.

Why do wine grape growers use this technology?

Well, it shows when a vine shuts down due to too much heat stress.

We use irrigation deficit techniques in order to make sure that the grapes aren’t too full of water and that they have the right flavor compounds. But if a vine goes under stress, like high vapor pressure deficit, and stops photosynthesizing for days on end, the grapes can start to develop off flavors.

And then, in terms of vine health and longevity, we’re wanting to make sure that we’re seeing really healthy levels of respiration post-harvest, so that the vines go into dormancy really healthy, and then they can come out next year full of health, so measuring the soil respiration and carbon flux post harvest is is really important.

We’ve worked with growers that usually put on a really large irrigation post-harvest, and that usually tracks very closely with soil respiration.

I remember one grower last season missed a few irrigations prior to November 1 - typically when we get that first inch of rain - and the soil health really dropped off due to just being starved for water. So that grower made this change of adding three solid irrigations, keeping that soil moist right until we get into that first inch of rain.

And does it also impact fertilizer application or compost application?

Yeah. So when we’re running trials, we can measure water use efficiency, field capacity. When you’re adding organic matter, biochar, and compost, you’re adding a lot of organic matter to the soil, and it’s increasing that water holding capacity. And we can measure the the water holding capacity and the water use efficiency of those vines.

Is there a way to figure out how to optimize those applications, like terms of volume, terms of timing.

Every site is is so different.

What we’re able to do with the agronomist is, if we start to see a vine shutting down or a block shutting down, and the other ones are not, we can start to find the metrics that are out of line, like what whether it was due to low soil moisture, was it due to higher heat, or are some blocks more resilient than others?

Some can continually photosynthesize and transpire moisture to cool the canopy and cool the crop, while others don’t. And sometimes, and sometimes those those blocks even have lower soil moisture. They’re just able to pull on that moisture and continually cycle nutrients that the vine will need in order to continue operating.

So, are you able to pool the data that you get from all of your clients into a database that feeds your AI, or that all remains siloed and private?

We use our data that we collect to train our model, but all of our data remains confidential for the individual growers.

But they are able to leverage the collective data?

That’s correct. Yeah, especially the environmental data we pull from weather stations, and then incorporate it with the microclimate data that we collect as well.

So, what does that enable? I mean, is that weather forecasting, or…?

We can forecast heat waves by pulling that microclimate data based on the GPS location.

So, do you have many people who are doing comparative trials like the one that was conducted at Robert Hall, comparing conventional and regenerative organic, are people interested in that?

Yes, most definitely.

Some of the trials that we’re running are on conventional farms, and they are starting to incorporate living biology in addition to their conventional practices. Especially in the Midwest and in Idaho and Washington, we’re seeing growers that are starting to to realize that their yields have been declining, and that their crops aren’t nearly as resilient as they once were, and they’re coming to the conclusion that it’s based on treating their soil.

So does this enable them like a periscope into microbial activity?

We can measure microbial activity through gas flux. A lot of the the soil biology is aerobic, just like we are. They take in oxygen, breathe out CO2. So that’s how we’re able to measure the soil activity.

Is the sensor data revelatory for some farmers?

Starting to look at the CO2 cycle is very new to a lot of these growers because they’ve never seen this type of data before.

They’ve never actually seen numbers to how much they’re photosynthesizing, but with the AI Agronomist, we’re able to explain that based on the other types of metrics, right? We want our crop to be absorbing sunlight and breathing in breathing in CO2, so that it can continue to function and grow. And when we can show that that stops because of a certain thing that’s happening in the immediate environment around it, that becomes something that they can actually work to change.

So, are high fertilizer prices driving any changes in wanting to use this technology more?

I think that growers are realizing that there are alternatives to the nitrogen, like the typical NPK that they’ve been applying – living biology. There’s plenty of nitrogen in the atmosphere, and living biology can help take that nitrogen, turn it into an inorganic form that’s plant available.

Can you unpack that just a little bit more?

Yes. So the soil microbiome, as it’s living and and dying, a lot of these microbial bodies will have nitrogen available in their bodies, and and when that biology, when this soil life turns into microbial necromass - the dead bodies - that nitrogen is then plant available. You don’t get that in dead soils that are just have synthetic nitrogen applied, and this is beyond just using legumes and fixed nitrogen.

Living biology can help bridge that and can take nitrogen that would be not available for the plant, and then make it and then turn it into a inorganic form that the plant is is able to take up.

So, what kinds of farms and growers are benefiting, or are the first on board to adopt this technology and understand how powerful it can be for them?

It’s all types of growers.

We work with a lot of conventional corn and soy growers in the Midwest that are trialing new biology, and it’s not just younger growers. I think it’s a lot of growers that have been in the field for 20 and 30 years, seeing that what they have been doing isn’t working anymore.

They’re seeing their neighbors [benefit]. …I think one of our customers in in Nebraska just got five inches of rain, and a lot of these crops are struggling, and some of them that have been using no-till techniques - planting their corn directly into an alfalfa field - are seeing that their fields can absorb and take on that water without without destroying their crop.

So, do you think it’s led more people to adopt cover crops, or what other measures?

That’s definitely one of the levers that that people are using. Cover cropping can be incredible, and then also working toward no-till farming, if that’s something that works for your site. We work with growers that, especially in vineyards, that that are transitioning to no-till or just shallower tilling,

We see that sometimes there can be lower soil moisture in these no-till blocks. But what’s interesting is that the vine roots go down so deep that they’re able to pull from soil moisture from from down below, and they are continuing to photosynthesize even though they have lower soil moisture. That cover crop can start to transpire some of that water, so that it’s not available to the vine, but there’s still plenty of water for the vine to to draw upon.

So, what are agronomists thinking about this technology, and are they the ones making the decision usually to use?

It’s brand new. The onboarding calls that I’ve done so far, we’ve had just incredible response on it.

They’re really looking forward to starting to use some o this data this winter to go over the previous season’s data.

[In the new AI app] You can ask kind of these questions like “was my irrigation strategy proactive or reactive?” And it can start to draw upon all the soil health metrics in this previous season, and then it’s also logging the weather events and it’s also logging all of the stress events.

And then it’s comparing different blocks. I just worked with one grower, and two of the blocks were very proactive, and one that had rockier soils just was categorized as more reactive. So there were big stress events that happened, and then there was a three day lag between the next irrigation. So that irrigation really should have happened four days prior, and then that stress event would not have impacted the vine so much.

So back to the fertilizer question: Is that playing a role? When you said people are finding that they want that rising price of products, what products are you thinking of?

Typically, like the more synthetic nitrogen and synthetic products, we have been working with a number of organic input companies that are trying to validate their products, so they’re wanting to see how their product affects soil health…

We’re working on a trial on a farm, and they’ll apply their standard application, they’ll apply half the application, and then they’ll use it on a control. And then we can look at all of the soil health and plant health data, and then couple that with yield.

I think eventually we’ll be able to get to a point where we’ll be able to forecast yield, depending on the soil health metrics and plant health metrics that we’re seeing.

Yeah, the holy grail.

So I’m just kind of curious. What is happening re El Niño? How might people be able to respond using this technology?

I would say there is a lot in the news about El Nino and the amount of water that California in particular is going to be receiving.

So a lot of our customers are [changing cover crop practices]… Instead of just planting cover crop every other row, they’re planting cover crop every row.

They’re selecting different types of cover crop, maybe putting in more grasses out there for their ability to hold on to soil at that more shallow level with more fibrous roots instead of deep tap roots.

Yeah, there’s so much to think about here.

We work with some blueberry growers and some tomato growers in the Central Valley, trialing different fertilizers. We also can measure nitrous oxide, and that’s been pretty well received in the Central Valley, because nitrous oxide is a greenhouse gas that’s 300 times more detrimental than CO2.

So a lot of growers are using smaller [amounts of] nitrogen or trying to be a little more precise on their nitrogen applications, because we can measure what just gets volatilized and doesn’t even make it to the crop. So that’s just money that’s literally volatilizing into thin air.

Are they being monitored for nitrous oxide emissions?

Not yet, to my knowledge. I know that there is with nitrogen runoff. I think this is a really good way for growers to get ahead of that to be able to show how efficient they are being with with their nitrogen.

Is anyone doing that?

We are working with a couple of growers that are doing that.

That’s a very interesting point about the nitrogen holding, or being able to document that you’re not offloading.

A lot of irrigation cutbacks are coming the Central Valley…

Water is incredibly interesting, and it’s one of the metrics that we measure.

We’re not just a soil moisture probe, but we can show the soil moisture levels at which the crop shuts down.

So even if your soil moisture probe is saying, “Oh, you’re you know at 15% volumetric water content,” and that might appear low to someone, and they might put water on, but we can show what that stress threshold is. Maybe that crop doesn’t shut down until 11% ,so you have another few days of watering. You’re not just watering to raise the water level in the soil. You’re trying to feed that soil microbiome.

So if we’re trialing three blocks for, sometimes, an amendment additive. If you’re adding soil biology or you’re adding biochar, you can lower that stress threshold so that that crop, that potato crop, can still photosynthesize, or those grapes can still photosynthesize all the way down to 11% volumetric content. And then we can calculate at what moisture level the crop starts experiencing stress.

It’s not going to be the same in each block. And if you have really uneven terrain, maybe in these lower areas, you can water once a week, and the ones up top on the ridge top, you have to water three times a week. So we can really save growers money on irrigation as well.

I’m sort of curious because there’s so much about precision irrigation, right? And there’s actually more and more new AI stuff coming out with precision irrigation, and you’re wonder so what’s really new about this? It’s such a big concern that so many companies have worked on this. How is this solution unique or different or better?

Well, we’re not just measuring moisture, right? We’re measuring the crop response in real time, like every 30 minutes, we’re taking measurements.

So, where does it really pencil out for growers? Because you know, I’m sure most growers go like, “I ain’t spending money on nothing,” but they must be changing their tune?

It takes a grower that really wants to pay attention and to dial in their operation. I’ve farmed for many years, and I’m a firm believer in the old adage, “The best fertilizer is the footprints of the farmer.” Like we don’t replace that. We can just tell you where to put your attention, how to prioritize your day, or what blocks really should require your attention.

Right. It seems like a pretty revolutionary thing to be able to do. It is kind of “eyes inside” or something.

Yeah.

And I haven’t really come across other companies doing this.

We work with some of the most talented growers in the country, and they already know how to farm really well. But what they’ve lacked is that really trustworthy ground truth data.

Right. So you mentioned working with some organic products companies. What about regenerative product companies, and what about biodynamic practices or sub or preps?

Yeah, we work with growers practicing biodynamics as well. That’s something really interesting to me, too, because you’re you’re working with the invisible, right?

We’re measuring this invisible response, which is gas flux. It’s how this is breathing - living, and breathing. It’s kind of like a a Fitbit for your farm or for your block to see what its health is. Like, is it stressed? Or is it operating with excess? Is there excess vigor?

We work with a diversified grower in the Central Valley.

We not done like a side by side organic - biodynamic trial, but I would love to do that, working with with Demeter or someone like that - seeing how a horn manure spray and the horn silica spray increase respiration and the rooting mechanisms and and the response to sunlight.

Is the company expanding?

Next year we’re hoping to be international, so we will be working in New Zealand and Australia, and then shortly thereafter working in Europe.

END OF INTERVIEW

NOTE 

In addition to helping farmers and growers, CPG companies are finding Agrology’s sensors, data and reporting useful for Scope 3 emissions reporting and more.

To learn more about Agrology, dig deeper on their website or Instagram posts. (Be sure to go to agrology.ag as there is another company at agrology.com)

The Interview: Vance Rose of Harper’s Rest On Becoming Sonoma’s First Regenerative Organic Vintner in the Russian River Valley

After finding that Moon Dust Vineyard in Sebastopol, formerly farmed and owned by David Bruce, was now certified regenerative organic, the first vineyard in the Russian River Valley to have done that, I was curious about the details.

SEE PHOTO: Harper’s Rest winemaker Vance Rose ON SUBSTACK

After its owners acquired a second estate vineyard, the label (formerly Jonive) is now called Harper’s Rest.

Other ROC wineries in Sonoma are located in Sonoma Valley – Bedrock and Gundlach Bundschu–both of which are ROC only on their estate vines – or in the Carneros (Ram’s Gate-estate wines only) and Donum Estate (100% ROC).

Winemaker Vance Rose answered the call in this phone interview.

We covered a lot of ground about Harper’s Rest and how they are bullish on the market for regenerative organic wine. ENJOY.

This is Part 2 of a two part series. (Read Part 1 here.)

Pam: Recently I saw that you popped up as the newest regenerative organic certified vineyard in the U.S. and so I thought I’d ask you a few questions. I did want to write a Substack post about you guys since you’re new in that certification category. I just was curious to hear a little bit about your story. It sounds like you have one vineyard that’s certified, and then you have another winery and vineyard.

Vance: Yes, we have a vineyard that we purchased in 2021 outside of Sebastopol that has been certified organic and ROC for just over a year, and then we purchased winery and vineyard and tasting room and all that in February of 2025, and we’re in the process of doing the the time thing to get that certified organic and regenerative as well, and that’ll be about 18 more months.

So, what inspired you to get into the wine business?

I have been in it for 46 years. So, and what inspired me to get into it was a great bottle of wine in 1978, when I was 18 years old, and I couldn’t believe something could taste so good. And here I am, all these years later.

So you guys at Jonive were part of what company?

The company is called Young’s Holdings Company, and it’s a family-owned company, been around since 1888. Most people would know it as Young’s Market Company when they had that company, until they sold the first half in 2019 and the second half in 2022,

And why did they sell?

The distribution business was harder and harder with all of the big spirit companies controlling you and dictating your margins and giving you very short-term contracts, so it was a really hard business to invest in for the long term when you have short-term contracts with 50-60% of your business.

Right, the industry really morphed.

Yeah, it really has, and and all the big spirit suppliers have all the power, so it’s just really not the the best way, and they just felt like they would be better off taking their money out of that and putting it in other things.

What other things have they done?

Well, they own a number of a bunch of real estate that they have owned since they started in business in 1888, and things they’ve bought over the years. They have a wine company called Wilson Daniels, importer, national marketing company, and distributor, and they’ve owned that for over 25 years, and then they have a spirit company similar to that called Infinium Spirits, and they own probably four of the brands within that company, and then have other brands they represent. And it’s kind of the same with Wilson Daniels – they own two brands within that, but then have many brands that they represent from around the world.

But it sounds like you’re not doing those things.

I don’t do those things. My little part of the world is Harper’s Rest. Harper’s Rest is our brand with these two estate vineyards, and I manage that company and make the wine.

So, what inspired you to do that? To make wine, or right to have a vineyard and to grow and make wine.

We are still very bullish on the wine business and think there may be a downturn at the moment, but our business on the two brands that we own is up.

We’re growing, doing well, and what we wanted with Harper’s Rest is to control our own grapes, control our own production, and we have some control over our distribution with Wilson Daniels being a family, a company within our family.

And so that’s what we set out to do. And in doing that, we have always believed in farming organically and regeneratively, and we thought it was important to not just be one of those people that say, “Well, I I do it, I practice it. I just don’t get certified because it’s a hassle.

We really felt like that we needed to be out front with it and be certified,

So how did you select the first vineyard, the Moon Dust Vineyard, to purchase?

Moon Dust Vineyard was previously owned by David Bruce, who has a winery in the Santa Cruz Mountains, but he planted with Pinot Noir he brought from Burgundy in 1963. They then bought this piece of land in the Russian River, two and a half miles southwest of Sebastopol.

And I fell in love with it because it had five assets that I had not seen in one spot before.

It’s the coolest part of Russian River in the Sebastopol Hills.

It has Goldridge soil, great for growing Pinot Noir and Chardonnay. All the locals out there call that Goldridge soil Moon Dust. So we named our vineyard Moon Dust Vineyard.

It is a mature vineyard. The Chardonnay was planted in 1996, and the Pinot Noir in 2007.

It has multiple clones. We have six clones of Pinot Noir and two clones of Chardonnay for me to blend together to make a more interesting wine.

And it was farmed organically before, so it was quick for me to be able to get the certification.

So that’s why we purchased that vineyard, and we love it.

And the clones? What are the clones?

Pinot Noir is Pomard, 777, 667, 115, 828, and David Bruce selection, which is cuttings from his vineyard in Santa Cruz that he brought the cuttings from Burgundy. And then in Chardonnay we have clone 95 and clone 17, also called Robert Young.

And when did you purchase Moon Dust?

In March of 2021.

And how much wine are you making?

We make, between the two vineyards, about 6,500 cases of wine. About 2,800 of those go into the Harper’s Rest label, and the rest goes into this other label that we own called Routestock.

And what is Routestock?

Routestock has four wines in it: Napa Valley Cabernet, Napa Valley Sauvignon Blanc, Sonoma Coast Chardonnay and Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir. It’s about 16, 17-year-old, brand. We do about 55,000 cases this year.

Oh, so you buy grapes for that?

We buy grapes for that, but all of the excess Pinot Noir and Chardonnay goes into that, and then we purchase grapes for the rest of it.

Right, and then how much wine are you making from your most recently acquired vineyard, and how many acres is that? The one that’s in transition.

Yeah, it is on Westside Road in the Middle Reach of Russian River. It’s a 34 acre property, but only eight acres are planted – seven acres of Pinot Noir and one acre of Chardonnay.

And that was not David Bruce, correct?

That was not. No, that was Arista Winery. We bought that property in the end of February of 2025. So I have another 18 months to to go before it can be certified,

So are you keeping the two properties separate in vinification?

Yes. We keep the properties separate, the blocks and the clones separate, and then blend them together. We have done some blending between the two properties for a Russian River Chardonnay and Russian River Pinot Noir, and then separate individual pieces with the best stuff from each property.

So, what are you finding from the Moon Dust Vineyard as opposed to your other vineyard?

Vance: Moon Dust is about seven degrees cooler every day during the summer, so it has more of those cool climate things. It’s also that Goldridge soil – it kind of produces a wine that is not high in alcohol, not heavy, but light on its feet...but still dark, and has a real black tea, black cardamom, bay laurel kind of of flavors, and I love that, love that cool climate.

And then in the Middle Reach at Harper’s Rest Vineyard, it’s that more typical Russian River, warmer, a little bit bigger style of wine.

We still produce it in the kind of mid 13% alcohol range. We don’t get too high up there with our alcohols.

So you’re making the you had to make the wine somewhere else, right? Originally from Moon Dust…

Originally yes, and then now for the last two vintages in our facility there on Westside Road.

So what was your first vintage?

2021. We did two vintages, 2021 and 2022, under a different label. And then when we bought the facility on the Westside Road, that name didn’t carry over to it because…it wasn’t in that same land grant, so we needed to come up with a new name. So we named it after a gentleman that owned the property from 1850 to 1857, and grew hops there, sold them right up the road at Hop Kiln Winery, or what we now call Hop Kiln Winery.

He died in 1857, and he’s buried in our front vineyard there, gravestone and all. His name was Reuben Harper.

That’s one of the stories. There’s also another story for the name is that I have a six-year-old granddaughter named Harper, and I told her I named the winery after her. So if you see her, you have to tell that story only, please. Otherwise, I’ll be a very bad grandfather.

And you have a lovely accent. Where is it from?

Austin, Texas. I’m a redneck Texan by birth.

So I am an employee here. I run a company called Chaos Vineyards, which is wholly owned by Young’s Holdings, which is owned by Chris Underwood and his wife and Chris’s brother.

So, what is Chaos?

The two brothers that own the company have five kids, and their first initials of their first names are C H A O and S. So they’re not in that birth order, but somebody figured that out and named my little company Chaos Vineyards.

And what does Chaos do?

Chaos is truly just producing Harper’s Rest wine, and we produce Routestock as well for Wilson Daniels.

How much does Routestock retail for?

Routestock retails for Napa Cab is $25 retail. The Sonoma Coast Pinot is $24, Chardonnay and Sauvignon Blanc are $19.99.

It’s about two thirds an on premise brand, which is pretty much what Wilson Daniels is as a company.

So it’s not a supermarket wine...

No, it is not.

Where does the other third go?

The Wilson Daniels owns just their own distributors in New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut. In those markets, you don’t sell in grocery stores. They’re all independent retailers, and so the vast majority of our retail businesses is in those three states. New York is our largest state, and New Jersey is our second largest state for the brand.

So the Harper’s Rest brand did the owners decide they want to be regenerative, organic, or was it really your decision?

I have only farmed that way, and so when we got together, they knew my philosophy. I’ve been making Routestock since 2014 for them, and so we shared the same sensibilities on environmentalism, organic agriculture, and regenerative farming.

Right, but Routestock is not those things.

Routestock is not those things. It is harder at that scale to get growers to do what we want to do, and so that’s why we wanted to do Harper’s Rest, where we could control it and control our own grape growing and our own making. Our building is certified CCOF organic as well.

Are you going to be bottle labeling any of that?

Yes, we will have a CCOF and ROC logos on our labels as soon as we are legally able to.

Oh, great! So, is it going to be at the Made with Organic Grape standard?

Yes. 100%.ta

Because you don’t have to do that standard, but I guess you got your winery certified, so that is usually people’s intention.

So that we could do that exactly.

Great. And why are you so bullish on organic and regenerative?

Well, I don’t want to drink synthetic herbicides, pesticides, and fungicides.

I’ve tested over 400 wines in my career for residual synthetic herbicides, pesticides, and fungicides, and they were in all 400 of those wines. And so I just don’t want to drink it.

I don’t want to expose my employees to it, have them put on a hazmat suit to go spray, and and that really is the biggest thing.

The soil health is so much greater with organic and regenerative, being even no organic herbicide and no tilling. So I am a huge proponent of it.

The Heat Factor | ROC Is Cooler

One of the things came into focus in the 2022 vintage for us when it was so hot – 10 days of huge heat. It got to 113 degrees in our Moon Dust vineyard.

On that day, at 113 degrees, we tested our soil at four inches depth, and tested a neighbor’s soil (who tills), and our soil was 33 degrees cooler than their soil, and that drives the point home that no tilling is great.

Not to mention that when you till, you’re breaking up the microbe chains that are helping feed your vine. So I just I would not farm any other way, because I don’t want to drink wine with those chemicals in it.

So when you say you tested it, did you have a lab or you had it tested at a lab.

Had it tested at a lab. There’s a lab in Fresno that can test for residual herbicides, pesticides, and fungicides.

And do many people do that?

No, not many people do that. It’s not cheap, but I had just wanted to know what is in this stuff that we’re drinking, and I found out. So I don’t use any of those things [at Harper’s Rest].

But do you mainly buy Sonoma sustainable grapes then for the other, the big label?

Yes, we have 11 different growers with between the four wines for Routestock. One of those is certified organic. The others are not, and I encourage them as often as I see them to transition to that. But we do have them where they’re using no glyphosate and have not been using glyphosate for over five years.

Well, that’s impressive. Yeah, for Sonoma growers.

I think they got tired of hearing me complain, so they gave it up.

Any incentives at all?

We do, yes.

What incentives do you offer them?

Financial… we pay more. We’ll pay more if they become certified, and if they just don’t use glyphosate. That was just me bending their ear hard enough where they finally gave it up.

And how’s that going?

They are now happy as heck with it.

Why is that?

Number one, it [glyphosate herbicide] costs some money.

Number two, they felt like kind of the standard of vineyards in the United States was to have a row of dirt underneath your vine, so nothing could grow there. So they would spray glyphosate there, and that kills everything that can grow there.

Well, that also kills the microbes in the soil, which are feeding your grapes.

So your grapes aren’t as good [if you use herbicide], and so I think they see that having growth underneath their vine is not ugly. It’s very beautiful, and it can make them grow a better grape. And they’re not having to buy that stuff, and they’re not having to put on hazmat suits and have their people spray.

Who’s doing your farming?

Matt Stornetta and his company is called Stornetta Made. He’s a guy who grew up in Sonoma, where I live. Known him since he was 15. His mother is a grape grower, and I wouldn’t farm a grape without him.

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See more on Instagram where you can see videos that feature Vance and others at Harper’s Rest.

 

Sonoma’s Russian River Valley AVA Gets Its First Regenerative Organic Vineyard: Moon Dust (Part of Harper’s Rest)

GO TO SUBSTACK TO SEE THE STORY WITH PHOTOS

You could call Jonive/aka Harper’s Rest, a new vineyard from a “old wine” family” since Chris Underwood’s family has been in the wine business as distributors since 1888, until they sold in 2022 to RNDC. (They have renamed Jonive now to Harper’s Rest).

They are still involved in distribution in Wilson Daniels, an importer that among other things represents a number of my favorite organic and biodynamic wineries (visited), a list that includes, in the Rhone alone, the organically certified Chene Bleu (in the Vaucluse region of Provence, in the south of France, close to Mont Ventoux) and the biodynamic certified Domaine de Beaurenard, an eighth-generation family-owned winery on 80 acres of Châteauneuf-du-Pape vineyards.

Wilson Daniels has also, under the Underwoods, produced its own 55,000 case brand Routestock, a Napa and Sonoma wine, primarily for on premise distribution in the U.S.

The Back Story | 2023 Press Release | “Wilson Daniels Introduces Jonive, the First Winery Founded by the Underwood Family”

November 1, 2023 (New York, NY) — Wilson Daniels is pleased to announce the addition of Jonive, an exciting new project in the Sebastopol Hills of the Russian River Valley, to its national portfolio. With the launch of Jonive, taking its name from the original 1845 California land grant titled Rancho Cañada de Jonive, the Underwood family is writing the next chapter in its 135-year history in the wine and spirits business.

The Underwoods are the owners of Young’s Holdings, one of America’s oldest continuously operated family-owned businesses (founded 1888) and the parent company of Wilson Daniels. Today, the fifth generation of the family take a bold step forward with the founding of Jonive. Inspired to create terroir-driven expressions of Burgundian varieties in northern California, the family has produced an elegant 2021 Estate Pinot Noir and Estate Chardonnay sourced from their Moon Dust Vineyard, planted to 19- to 27-year-old vines in the Sebastopol Hills.

“I’ve immensely enjoyed my career on the wholesale side of the wine business, but I’ve always had this untapped passion and drive to produce fine wine in my home state of California,” said Chris Underwood, proprietor of Jonive and CEO of Young’s Holdings. “When the opportunity presented itself to purchase the 18-acre Moon Dust Vineyard in 2021, my family and I sensed its potential to produce world-class pinot noir and chardonnay, and decided this would be our avenue into making wine. Partnering with acclaimed winemaker Vance Rose, both wines are deeply reflective of the terroir with its rare Goldridge soils. We couldn’t be more thrilled to present the 2021 vintage to the market.”

Jonive’s Moon Dust Vineyard is nested within the Sebastopol Hills in the coolest area of the Russian River Valley, home to rare and desirable Goldridge soils, from which it takes its name ‘Moon Dust’. First planted to vines in 1996, the vineyard consists of four pristine acres of chardonnay, comprising two individual clones across two blocks. In 2007, the vineyard was expanded to comprise an additional eleven acres of pinot noir, planted to six distinct pinot noir clones. Jonive is a true reflection of vine maturity, organic and regenerative farming, high-quality soil, a world-class microclimate, and clonal diversity.

“Working closely with the Underwood family for the past eight years at Wilson Daniels, I’ve had the opportunity to witness firsthand their admiration for the wine business and their commitment to their home state of California,” said Rocco Lombardo, President of Wilson Daniels. “Having the experience of visiting this property from the outset and tasting through the 2021 vintage, these wines reflect their terroir given the maturity of the vineyards, and exhibit great balance, fresh acidity, and length on the palate. I speak on behalf of our entire team, we are honored to launch Jonive and excited to watch these wines enter the marketplace and be made accessible to our devoted clients.”

Both the 2021 Estate Pinot Noir and Estate Chardonnay were fermented naturally without any additions before moving to barrel, where secondary fermentation was also allowed to occur naturally. The 2021 wines were aged for fourteen months in new and used French oak barrels and bottled last December.

Fast Forward to 2026 | Harper’s Rest’s Moon Dust Vineyard is Newly Certified Regenerative Organic

I had a chance to catch up with Jonive/Harper’s Rest winemaker Vance Rose yesterday on the phone.

That exclusive interview is live now and you can read it here.

Jackson Family Wines Achieves Regenerative Organic Certified Status for its Napa Valley Estate Vineyards, Becomes Second Largest ROC Winegrower in Napa | Napa Region Becomes ROC Leader

350 planted acres in 15 estate vineyards | Some (but not all) of the wines from these brands are included: Cardinale, Freemark Abbey, Lokoya, La Jota, Mt. Brave, and Caladan. Napa becomes ROC leader.

A MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT AND AN ROC UPDATE

Jackson took a step forward, under the direction of long time organic advocate Chris Carpenter, achieving Regenerative Organic Certified Status for its Napa Valley Estate Vineyards. Bravo.

However not all of the wines from each brand - Cardinale, Freemark Abbey, Lokoya, La Jota, Mt. Brave, and Caladan - are from ROC estate grapes. Hopefully the bottles will be labeled with the appropriate certifier logos to let consumers know what’s what. 

A slight nit: Jackson’s claim to be the largest ROC grower in Napa is based on unplanted acreage, not planted vineyard acres. Grgich Hills has 365 planted ROC acres. (Boldings below are mine). 

In 2024, Jackson announced it had 440 planted acres converted to organic certification, but in 2026 it is announcing that 360 planted acres are ROC (not 440). 

Grgich Hills is certified at the silver level. Jackson has not yet disclosed the level it is certified for (i.e. gold, silver or bronze). Only two vineyards in the US are gold certified (Tablas Creek and Troon). 

Other Napa wineries currently certified ROC silver include Spottswoode (estate wines only) and Neal Family Vineyards, with Stag's Leap Wine Cellars (Fay and SLV vineyards) certified at the bronze level. Others are in the process of ROC certification (Opus One, Matthiasson and more). 

The Jackson announcement makes Napa the region with the most ROC certified vines.

See the photo on substack...

PRESS RELEASE FROM JACKSON

Sep 22, 2026

NAPA VALLEY, Calif., [September 21, 2026]. With harvest underway, Jackson Family Wines announces that its Napa Valley estate vineyards have achieved Regenerative Organic Certified® (ROC™) status, considered one of the most rigorous standards in agriculture. The certification covers approximately 663 acres across 15 estate vineyards, with 350 of those acres planted to vines. Jackson Family Wines now farms the largest Regenerative Organic Certified® vineyard acreage in Napa Valley, and its certification roughly doubles the valley’s total acreage under ROC™.

This milestone builds on Jackson Family Wines’ industry leadership in sustainable viticulture and follows the organic certification of these Napa Valley vineyards through CCOF in the fall of 2023. Regenerative Organic Certified adds independently audited standards on top of that organic foundation, across three pillars: soil health, animal welfare, and social fairness, which includes fair treatment and living wages for farmworkers. Jackson Family Wines began the ROC process in 2024, though it has farmed these mountain sites regeneratively for years, using practices that include no-till soil management, native cover crops, sheep and goats in place of mowers and tractors, integrated pest management, and precise water management. As with the estate’s organic certification, ROC applies to the vineyards, not to the winery or the finished wines. (Pam’s note: ROC does not certify products, only farming). 

“As farmers it is our responsibility to maintain the health of the land we farm for the long term and to recognize the downstream effects we have on the Napa Valley community,” says Winemaker Christopher Carpenter. “Regenerative farming is the best methodology to not only achieve these two incredibly important maxims, but it has also enhanced wine quality beyond our expectations. We are thrilled to partner with ROC and help them lead this effort in Napa Valley and hope by our example other growers consider adopting these practices,” he added.

Since adopting regenerative methods, the estates have recorded a measurable rise in wine quality while holding production volumes steady, countering the assumption that regenerative farming means giving up yield or quality. Carpenter points to the practice of no-till farming as one of the biggest drivers for vineyard health: it improves the soil’s water-holding capacity and carbon sequestration, and it protects the fungal networks connecting vine root systems so they can continue to develop. The vines are now showing greater resilience in extreme conditions. These vineyards span the diversity of the company’s estates in Napa Valley, from valley-floor sites in Oakville and Rutherford to hillside and mountain estates on Mt. Veeder, Howell Mountain, Spring Mountain, and Diamond Mountain. They are the primary source for some of the company’s most sought-after wines, including Cardinale, Freemark Abbey, Lokoya, La Jota, Mt. Brave, and Caladan.

“Jackson Family Wines achieving Regenerative Organic Certified across its Napa Valley estate vineyards is a powerful demonstration of what leadership looks like at scale,” said Christopher Gergen, CEO of the Regenerative Organic Alliance. “By putting the health of the soil, the well-being of farmworkers, and the long-term resilience of these vineyards at the center of how they farm, Jackson Family Wines is helping set a new benchmark for the wine industry. We hope their commitment inspires more growers and wine producers in Napa Valley and beyond to see regenerative organic agriculture not simply as a set of practices, but as a pathway toward a more resilient future for farming.”

Regenerative Organic Certified is governed by the nonprofit Regenerative Organic Alliance, co-founded by Patagonia, the Rodale Institute, and Dr. Bronner’s, and built on the three pillars of soil health, animal welfare, and social fairness. For Jackson Family Wines, the certification furthers its Rooted for Good: Roadmap to 2030 sustainability initiative, advancing two of its focus areas at the same time: Land Conservation and Regenerative Farming, and Social Responsibility. The social pillar, which requires fair treatment and living wages for farmworkers, reflects a company that has invested in its people and the communities around its vineyards since it was founded in 1982.

About the Regenerative Organic Alliance

The Regenerative Organic Alliance (ROA), a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, is transforming agriculture by advancing practices that eliminate chemical inputs, regenerate soil, uphold animal welfare, and ensure worker well-being. In response to pressing issues like the climate crisis, factory farming, and rural economic challenges, the ROA developed and oversees the Regenerative Organic Certified® (ROC™) label. This third-party verified certification builds on organic standards, establishing the highest global benchmarks for soil health, animal welfare, and social fairness. ROC™-certified food, fiber, and wellness products drive lasting positive change for our planet and communities. Discover more about our mission and initiatives at 

https://regenorganic.org

Pam’s Note: Jackson is also participating in regenerative viticulture research with a team of scientists from U.C. Davis. See 2024 article here.

Grenache Day Approacheth! Sept. 17th!

Celebrations abound. Share the love.

For Grenache, there is no finer time than Grenache Day to sample one of our favorite varieties. We are highlighting three here.

Also for your reading enjoyment here is a link to the Grenache Day article I wrote for WineBusiness.com when the industry was not falling apart and there were advertisers to support more freelance writing.

Grenache has come a long way, baby!

Please note Grenache champion Winery Sixteen 600, one of my personal favorites, is hosting a Grenache celebration Friday night at their downtown Sonoma tasting room. Should be fun and a very fine assortment to sample from!

WINERY SIXTEEN 600

Friday September 18 at the Tasting House
589 First St West Sonoma 5-9pm
France, Spain, Australia, Sonoma, Napa, Paso, Walla Walla, wherever… Bring bottle to share
Taco Truck from @costas_tacos and surprise guest on the mic 🎤 
Hip Hop & Grenache
RSVP @sixteen600
#grenache

MORE GRENACHE

Preston Farm and Winery | Winemaker’s notes

“The 2023 Grenache shows exceptional refinement, complexity, and length. The tightly-wound nose, which currently gains a great lift from decanting, leads with hibiscus petals and wild strawberry fruit, complemented by dried Mediterranean herbs and anchored by mineral notes of crushed black stone. A lively tension introduces the mouth; induced by a balancing act of silken and sumptuous texture, buoyant acidity, and a firm-but-gentle structure that stays out of the way until you realize its length and staying power. Flavors of tangy berry, jamaica tea, cherry cobbler and anise go along for the ride.”

Blend: 86% Grenache, 12% Carignane, 2% Mourvedre

Extra Dimensional Chalone Brosseau Grenache | My notes

Chalone Brosseau Grenache 2023 - My tasting notes written for Slow Wine Guide USA: “Pinot-esque in its lightness of being. Sheer and translucent with delicate cherries and more complex flavors.”

Tablas Creek Grenache | Winery notes

“A pretty nose of red licorice, coffee bean, berry cobbler, black pepper, and soy. On the palate, flavors of black cherry, baker's chocolate, plum skin, and bramble thicket. The finish shows mouth-coating texture and some fairly substantial Grenache front-palate tannins, with lingering notes of red fruit and licorice.” $45.

I would have liked to list their Aloutte Grenache in box but it is sold out. However the Alouette is still available in bottle.

Have your own little Grenache tasting!

Organic and Regenerative Organic Certification 101 with CCOF and ROA Experts

Two certification experts spoke at a Napa Valley Grapegrowers event in late July at COPIA in downtown Napa, following an on stage conversation with Steve Matthiasson of Napa and Jason Haas of Paso.

See the charts and photos FREE on SUBSTACK. 

“You were just hearing from some really seasoned organic and now regenerative organic farmers. We’re going to take it like a little step back because there’s a lot of folks who are in different places along the spectrum of what we would consider a transition,” said Beckett Parr as she began her talk. [Alanis Lindquist from ROA spoke during the second half of the session.]

CCOF history in a nutshell - photo (see substack for photo). 

First Principles | Biological Balance

“When organic was conceived certification in the early 70s, late 1960s, it was really about a holistic system of management, and you heard from the two growers talk about earlier today how really the goal of an organic system is to wean yourself off of inputs, hopefully entirely, right, and come into biological balance,” Beckett Parr said.

For those who pooh pooh organic certification (God knows why) Beckett Parr reminded the audience, “Organic is the most regulated, scrutinized, and transparent farming system in the world, and Steve Matthiasson [who spoke earlier in the proceedings] is not incorrect in saying that there is a lot of paperwork involved and it is highly scrutinized.

But it also means that it presents an opportunity to communicate to consumers about why you’re doing what you’re doing, how you’re doing what you’re doing, in a transparent and fair way, so there’s a lot of different benefits of organic.

I think you heard some of those from the growers earlier today.

There’s environmental benefits, there’s social benefits, and there’s also economic benefits.

And you heard some questions from the audience about how much does it cost and how much more am I going to make…it’s very crop specific.

SEE PHOTO

“So just a little bit of an organic timeline…organic is an age-old concept coming out of indigenous farming and indigenous food systems the world over.

“But as a certification, it was really codified beginning in the 1960s, early 1970s.

“The organization that I work for, CCOF, which was founded as California Certified Organic Farmers was founded by a passionate group of farmers here in California in 1973, and it was an all volunteer organization.

“Farmers developed standards together around their kitchen tables, and then they went out and said to their neighbors, ‘Do you want to transition into this thing that we’re calling organic?"‘ And it was volunteer for about a decade, all the way up into the early 1980s.

“And something that I think is really interesting is that this type of organizing was happening across the country. There were different farming organizations, farmer-led, being like, ‘Okay, we’re going to develop standards together for this thing called organic, and then we’re going to certify each other.’

“So farmers actually went out to each other’s fields and said, “Do you make the cut or do you not make the cut?…

“It took a couple decades for that to be codified into law. The California Organic Law was passed in 1990, and the federal law wasn’t passed until 2002. And so, in the early stages of organic, there were different definitions here in California and other places as certifications arose, and then as it became codified into state and federal law, it became unified. And that’s when the unification happened. We did give a bit of sovereignty over to the federal government. So now it’s the USDA organic law, and the way that the regulatory framework works is that there’s federal laws and standards.

Federal Oversight

It’s run through the USDA, the United States Department of Agriculture, through their Agricultural Marketing Service, and they house what’s called the National Organic Program, the NOP. It oversees accreditation standards and investigation for the entire country, and today there’s over 80 certification bodies. CCOF is one of them. [NOP audits and certifies the 80 certifiers].

We [at CCOF] certify about 15% of the U.S. market.

I’d like to think that’s because we’re fabulous at what we do. I think it’s also based on the fact that we were born in California, and we have the largest agricultural market in the country.

So CCOF spans all 50 states, and we also operate in Mexico and Canada. We are accredited by the National Organic Program. That means they audit us, we audit you, they audit us.

It is a lot of paper, and then we go out and we inspect and we certify organic farmers, handlers, retail operations, as well as livestock.

We were founded in 1973. We are a member-governed nonprofit organization. That means our membership base elects our board of directors. We have 15 members on our board of directors who are all farmers, processors, handlers, or livestock operators, and it is really the lifeblood of our organization to be accountable to our membership through that function. Today we have over 5,000 members. That means 5,000 individual operations.

Some of those are half-acre urban farms. Some of those are 60,000-acre farms in the Central Valley. We certify Whole Foods, which is one member but 500 stores. So think about the scale of operation that we’re talking about. It’s also extremely complex from a governance perspective to try to meet the needs of all of those different folks in all of those different production categories.

So here’s our pop quiz: What do you know about certified organic agriculture? And if you’re already certified organic, you are not allowed to answer this question. So anybody else in the room, do you know what do you know about certified organic agriculture? You heard some things this morning. You can draw on their experience.

No herbicides.

No GMOs.

No, yes. Non-genetically modified organisms are prohibited. No synthetic herbicides.

Biodiversity.

Biodiversity 

There are conservation and biodiversity standards written into the organic law, so you do have to maintain. For example, in your organic system plan, you have to maintain or conserve wildlife. So it takes into consideration: Do you have a stream that’s running through your vineyard? How are you managing that biologically? How are you accounting for the biota that’s coming onto your farmland through that? Other things that are in organic certification.

You have to be doing performing these practices for a certain period of time before you can be certified.

Yes. Does anybody know how much time it takes to farm organically before you can be certified?

It is three years.

So from the last time you applied something to your operation that’s not allowed in organic production to certification has to be three years.

Something I like to mention for vineyard operators: when you are putting stakes in the ground inside of an inside of an organic vineyard, you are not allowed to use treated wood. So, for those of you who have treated wood, this is something to consider in your organic transition.

If I’m starting to transition, I’m now writing down everything that I’m doing over that three years and making sure that everything is an allowable substance. So…three-year transition, no synthetic herbicides, no GMOs, biological conservation.

Labor is not part of it. It was part of the original impetus. There were a lot of things that came into organic as part of the original founders’ consensus, but it did not make it into the federal regulations.

So labor is not part of the organic standards. But when you are using biological inputs, your workers are safer, right? Like we would much rather have somebody spraying a stylet oil than some synthetic input that would be more toxic to human health.

Can you clarify what certified mentioned certified planting material? What exactly does that mean?

There is a materials list, so when you are considering going organic, there are three major places you can look to see if your inputs are allowed or not allowed.

1 There’s OMRI, which is the Organic Materials Review Institute. 

2 There’s the CDFA here in California, California Department of Food and Agriculture maintains a list. 

3 Washington State Department of Agriculture maintains a list as well, and you can check with us if you decide to get certified by CCF. 

We have our own list as well. Once you’re in the process of applying with us, we have our own member portal where you can check to see if something’s allowed or not, and upload or download the certificates of what you’re using.

The Organic Material Review Institute–fun fact–founded at CCOF, incubated, and then ran off and became its own business. 

We’ve done that with a couple of them over the last 50 years, but that was a very successful one that we probably should have figured out how to keep. But if it says OMRI on it, it is allowed.

Organic is also third party verified. We are the third party verifying your pesticides, so no synthetic pesticides. There are many allowable organic pesticides at this point. So if you’re on the input substitution route, there are equivalents. There are biologically derived pesticides and non-synthetics.

There’s also a lot of really interesting organismal pesticides [biopesticides] at this point. It’s a whole new field, not just like releasing insects into your vineyard, but also how do we deal with microbiota and cultivate specific types of microbiota to be controlling things in the environment.

Fertilizers, pesticides–these are things you want to be taking into consideration with certified organic agriculture.

So, for those of you all who are buying land or renting land, you can get an affidavit of land use history from the previous owner or lessee, and if they haven’t applied materials that are prohibited, you are allowed to transition quicker into certified organic production. You want to be thinking about planting rootstock and fertility.

“Pest management…We talked about materials on the national list. So again, there’s several places where you can look for available and approved inputs, and those are all maintained by the national list.

Both organic and regenerative organic require significant record keeping.

So that means, what are you applying? When are you applying it? How much are you applying? It means, what are you harvesting? How much are you harvesting? Where is it going? There are record keeping logs that we have that are available as templates on the internet.

If you don’t use paper, there’s a lot of really interesting applications, and you can come and talk to me later. We have farmers that keep all of their receipts in shoe boxes, and we have multi-billion-dollar corporations that have their own databases that they have 5,000 people who work in their fields that they’re all using. So everything in between is happening in our certified organic community.

Buffers

There is no set buffer because all biological and ecological processes are a little bit different.

What we’re going to take into consideration is who are your neighbors, what are they growing? Is there a hedgerow? Which direction is the wind? And so it’s something that you would write out when you’re applying for organic certification. You fill out this thing called the organic system plan, and it asks you, what does your ecology look like around you? What do the parcels look like around you? And how are you going to manage for drift if you are up against folks who are managing conventionally? And so we would be asking you to help co-design something that’s going to keep you safe.

What would be an acceptable answer to manage drift?

That’s very technical question. Is it like a hillside? Is it like what does the ecology look like around you? Is there are there buffer trees in between you? So if you want, if it’s very specific, you and I can get down later, and I will connect you to somebody who’ll be like, here’s an example of somebody in your neighborhood.

What about herbicide drift from neighbors?

Herbicide drift does happen, and there is legal precedent here in California for organic farmers to be protected from herbicide drift.

A few years ago, Jacobs Farm del Cabo, their big tomato operation, they also grow packaged herbs. They experienced pesticide drift from their Brussels sprout neighbors down on the Santa Cruz coast, and they sued them and won here in state court. It went all the way to the Supreme Court in California, and the settlement was about a million dollars, which was great for them because they lost the whole crop. But the better thing about it was that it created legal precedent for people here in California who are growing here to have compensation from their neighbors if they have drift.

We advise folks to make sure you have really good signage.

Make sure you’re in conversation with your neighbors. Make sure you’re keeping track of when they’re spraying. Just noting it down…Oh, they’re out there with boom sprayer again. ‘Okay, I’m going to write it down.’

As part of organic certification, there are testing protocols. We do testing on 5% of our members every year, and then we do drop-in testing based on complaints and investigations. So we have a whole complaints and investigation team of six people.

The Basic Timeline

You have to submit an organic system plan, answer some significant questions before inspection, and then it takes about a month and a half to two months that you get an inspection scheduled. So it’s a few months. If you’re interested in doing it, especially for you all, start in the fall so you’ll be ready in the spring.

I have some information about consumer behavior, but I’m going to stop talking and hand it over to our next speaker to make sure that we have time for questions. But I do have a bunch of information about you know who’s buying what and how they understand the organic label that I think would be helpful for your audience.

Alania Lindquist, ROA

I work at the Regenerative Organic Alliance. We are a nonprofit organization that was founded in 2018 by a consortium of educators, policymakers, farmers, brands, and individuals who felt that we could do better in agriculture, and felt that there were some some shortcomings in the way agriculture was practiced, even organic agriculture that wasn’t addressing some of the big issues that we were seeing.

My role at the ROA is that I’m the farm brand liaison, and I work with our growers and with our brands, and help them connect with each other so that we can build a regenerative organic movement and help address some of the supply chains needed to make that that happen.

What is Regenerative Organic Certified (ROC)?

So, Jessie was fantastic in explaining what organic is, and organic is the foundational requirement for regenerative organic certification.

So, everything that’s required to be organic needs to be maintained to become ROC, and we add on three pillars that address soil health and animal welfare, and farmer and worker fairness.

So it’s a farm-level certification that is third-party verified by certifying bodies like CCOF, and those crops can then carry that certification to processed products, and companies and brands can buy those those crops and carry the claim on pack.

And I have some examples here of the variety of certified and branded products that we work with.

ROC History and Adoption

Our initial certification, a farm level certification, happened in 2020, and Jason Haas [who spoke earlier at the event] was part of that pilot.

We are now certified in over 47 countries on over 22 million acres.

We certify 583 different kinds of crops on over 540 farms and ranches in the global north, and then we work with over 55,000 smallholder farmers in the global south. We have 374 licensed brands, so brands that are buying those crops and turning them into a product. And you can see that we have over 330,200 products in the marketplace right now, and we have 15 approved certified bodies that we work with.

I just wanted to shout out some of our ROC vineyards around the world.

We have 44 regenerative organic certified vineyards that we certify globally–25 of them are here in California, and 28 of those vineyards are making a branded product.

So it carries carries the license through to the product level. So shout out to you guys.

Jessie shared some of the organic and agroecological principles that came into founding the organic movement. The regenerative organic certification adds pillars onto that organic certification that focus on practices and outcomes, and actively improving the ecosystem, and also requires continuous improvement and building on the soil health, animal welfare, and social fairness practices that both Steve and Jason highlighted in the work that they’re doing.

Some of the soil health practices that are recognized under the Regenerative Organic standard are working with cover cropping, diverse and permanent cover crops, reducing or eliminating tillage, composting, mulching, and roller crimping, eliminating pesticides and herbicides, and use soil monitoring.

“Regenerative organic farming begins with a simple but transformative idea: soil is a living system.”

That certainly is an aspect of the certification.

Biodiversity, again, as we heard, having pollinator habitat strips and diverse cover crops to bring in some of those beneficial insects, integrating livestock into the operation, reducing chemical use that can harm beneficial insects or any insects really, and using you know the local species that are already found and creating habitats for them, like owls and bat boxes, to help with some rodent and insect controls, and creating environments that where where those species can thrive as well.

So, integrating livestock, while it is not required for the regenerative organic certification, a lot of vineyards, especially, have livestock integrated into their operations. Sheep are probably the most popular. But I’ve seen poultry, cattle, llamas, and goats.

There’s various benefits to bringing livestock into your operation, including weed management and targeted grazing for certain weeds, pest control, reducing the mechanical mowing passes or herbicide use that you would use to otherwise control cover crops, and of course the improved fertility from from the urine and feces of those animals can help increase the biodiversity and microbiotics of the soil.

Water resilience was another point that Jason and Steve touched upon. In California, using less water is an important aspect of agriculture here, and so increasing the water holding capacity of the soil by using the soil health practices and maintaining that water throughout the season is going to be very helpful for your operation.

And soil that’s not covered does not have the same water holding capacity that a soil that has cover crops planted in them.

Social Fairness

Social fairness–this is a really important aspect of our certification. And thank you, Steve and Jason, for touching upon this.

This is a very unique aspect of our certification, and one that often causes a lot of confusion or concern.

We recognize that people involved in agriculture as important as how you’re treating the land, and so we do part of our standard that’s audited at the farm level is a social fairness pillar, and we look at how workers are being treated, that they have the opportunity to have good working hours, that they’re getting paid a living wage, and freedom of association and grievance mechanisms in place.

And Jason, I really appreciate you sharing how that’s changed your operation and how the communication has really improved your business.

This highlights a question that was asked about cost and some of the return on investment, and I don’t have specific metrics about the dollar increase at the farm level because it’s all going to be context specific.

Resilience as ROI

I thought it was really interesting to look at some of the practices that are required by our standard and some of the outcomes that we’ve seen coming from those practices, and so looking at the return on investment as a long-term resiliency outcome, having vineyards that have more water retention, better operating efficiencies, better ecosystem services, higher quality fruit, and then also through the certification, that brand differentiation, those are all return on investments that you’re making at the farm level to offset maybe some of the higher costs of practicing agriculture this way.

Consumer Response

SPINS data chart on Substack

Here’s what we’re seeing in the marketplace. So this slide here is shared with us from SPINS, which collects data at the retail level at the checkout. Whether it’s through Amazon, Whole Foods, or Safeway. 

This previous year we saw 22 percent year-over-year growth in the sales of regenerative organic certified labeled products, and not only did we see increased sales in products that were labeled regenerative organic, but it actually increased the sales of other sustainable and ecological labels as well.

So you can see that organic sales, when paired with regenerative organic label as well, actually went up, including non-GMO and Fair Trade.

This is our most recent sales data on regenerative organic wine sales, and I think what’s really interesting to note at the bottom here, and I took this quote from an article that I read, is organic wine sales are at $13 billion dollars to date, and it’s expected to triple in the next six years.

I think that’s a really important metric for everybody to consider is that overall wine consumption is going down, but this projection is showing that people are more concerned about what’s in the bottle and the labels that are on the bottle as well.

And here’s some more metrics that speak to that as well. Again, what consumers are looking for, and somebody [Steve Matthiasson] quoted millennials, Gen Zers, and even younger people want to know what they’re paying for. They’re not averse to paying more. 

They’re not averse to buying something that’s better quality, but they want to know that that means something.

And so when they’re looking at certifications and labels that are on the food and beverages and clothing that they’re purchasing, these certifications do matter to them. And I think we’re only going to see this increase in the future.

Some of the metrics that I have on the bottom here highlight that. There’s a plethora of information online, from webinars to courses and podcasts, and of course we have live experts in the room today. Jason and Steve, and I also want to call out Pam Strayer, who’s the editor of Slow Wine USA, who has really been sharing so much knowledge with me. So thank you so much.

There’s many ways that you can include regenerative practices in your operations. Becoming Regenerative Organic Certified is one way of showing and sharing the work that you do. But even if our standard is not for you, I encourage you to start looking at this work. We are here to be in community with you and to cheer you on and support your work. So thank you all so much.

Wine...Is It Still Relevant? | Yes, But...AND New Study Shows a Third of Consumers Say “We’ll Have It Our Way,” Mixing It With Juice, Ice, Sparkling Water, Etc.

New study from the Wine Market Council and strategy firm Material looked carefully at a matrix of specific demographics.

The research suggests consumers don’t dislike wine but they do not buy into wine’s elitist tropes and complications.

A national survey of 900 U.S. wine consumers from the Wine Market Council and consulting researchers at Material broke down a wide cross section of wine drinker types and generations to help marketers find steps to take to sell wine.

Some of the study’s most surprising findings:

• Three in ten respondents said they mix wine into cocktails or serve it over ice. Twenty percent mix it with non-alcoholic drinks like soda, juice, or sparkling water, or drink it blended and frozen.

• Compared to other alcoholic beverages, wine is not showing up in social media feeds that lead to discovery. Wine marketing is not keeping up.

• Wine branding is comparatively weak with consumers unable to recall which brand they saw content for.

• Consumers dislike showing wine pairings with fine dining: “just give us the everyday pairing ideas (burgers, taco, pizza, etc.)”

An Image Problem? Not Exactly.

Presenting the findings in a members’ webinar, Wine Market Council president Michelle Egan framed the core insight up front: consumers already see wine as welcoming, approachable, fun, and enjoyable. Those are real strengths.

The catch is that wine also remains tightly bound to tradition, older generations, and special occasions.

The opportunity is to broaden the invitation — helping consumers picture wine in the moments they’re already enjoying, and making it easier to discover, choose, and try.

How the Study Was Constructed

The research is the second phase of a broader WMC project.

Phase two validated cultural signals with hard numbers: a survey of 900 U.S. alcohol consumers, split evenly across Gen Z, Millennials, and Gen X+, and further divided into core wine drinkers, marginal drinkers, and non-adopters — 100 respondents in each combination of generation and consumption tier.

Consumers aren’t asking for more wine education-they’re asking for wine to feel simpler, more approachable, and easier to try.

Four Key Takeaways

Material’s Caroline Heizee walked through four themes that anchor the report:

• Relevance, not reputation, is the real barrier. Wine is already perceived positively; it just isn’t associated with enough everyday occasions.

• Engagement changes what wine “is” to a consumer. Core drinkers see wine fitting almost anywhere — relaxing at home, hanging out with friends, traveling — while non-adopters keep it confined to formal, special-occasion use.

• Wine needs to show up differently to stay part of the conversation. It has lower visibility than other alcohol categories across major media, and discovery paths vary sharply by generation.

• Consumers want confidence, not more education. They’re asking for practical inspiration — food pairings, clear labels, simple selection tips — not deeper wine knowledge.

Breaking the Rules on Purpose

One of the more striking findings involves how people are actually drinking wine.

While most consumption is still straightforward — wine on its own, with or without a meal — three in ten respondents said they mix wine into cocktails or serve it over ice, and 20% mix it with non-alcoholic drinks like soda, juice, or sparkling water, or drink it blended and frozen.

Even among core wine drinkers, three-quarters reported drinking wine in a non-traditional way at least some of the time.

Younger consumers are driving much of this experimentation, but classic serving styles remain prominent across every generation. The takeaway for marketers isn’t to abandon the traditional wine occasion — it’s to normalize the non-traditional ones alongside it, so consumers don’t feel embarrassed serving wine “incorrectly.”

The Discovery Gap | Why Is Wine Sort of Silent on Social Media?

When it comes to media visibility, wine shows up far less than other alcoholic beverages across platforms like YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and TV — and there’s no single channel where wine outperforms alcohol overall. Importantly, Material’s researchers argue this isn’t because wine content feels intimidating or overly academic; it’s that wine simply isn’t showing up in people’s feeds often enough.

Generational patterns diverge from there:

• Gen Z discovers wine primarily through social platforms and responds to short-form, relatable content.

• Millennials have the broadest media footprint, blending social discovery with more traditional sources — and content needs to both inspire and inform them.

• Gen X leans on established sources: food, wine, and lifestyle websites, plus retailer and producer sites.

Non-adopters are the least plugged into wine media specifically, meaning broader lifestyle content — not wine-specific outlets — is the more effective entry point.

• Notably, most consumers who encounter wine content on social media can’t name the specific creator or account behind it. Discovery is happening, but it’s passive — which points to a need for clearer next steps (learn more, find where to buy, save for later) rather than more content alone.

What Consumers Are Asking For

Open-ended survey responses reinforced the data. Consumers described wanting wine marketing that reflects everyday life rather than fine dining, plain-language explanations of terms like “dry,” pairings with street food and home cooking instead of just cheese boards, and more low-commitment ways to sample wine — such as variety packs and tasting events — before buying a full bottle.

Guided tastings, variety packs, and at-home relaxing occasions emerged as nearly universal points of interest across every generation and consumption tier — notably including Gen Z non-adopters, who turned out to be the most open non-adopter segment in the study.

Turning Insight Into Action

Material closed with several concrete ideas for wineries and marketers, including:

• Everyday pairing content — short-form video pairing wine with pizza, burgers, or takeout rather than formal cuisine

• “Wine Works Here” campaigns — positioning wine for movie nights, game nights, and casual at-home occasions

• Modern serve content — spritzers, sangria, and other non-traditional formats, paired with messaging that there’s “no wrong way to wine”

• A shop-learn-save content framework — ensuring every post gives consumers a clear, low-friction next step

The Bigger Picture

During the Q&A, Material’s team pushed back gently on the narrative that people are simply “drinking less.” Rather, they argued, consumers — especially younger ones — are drinking differently: diluting wine to avoid overconsumption [or masking it with flavors they KNOW], favoring smaller formats, and finding new social contexts for a category that still carries real emotional resonance. As one presenter put it, some of what makes wine feel out of step with the moment — its traditions, its formats, its associations — may actually be underused strengths rather than liabilities, if repositioned toward relevance instead of formality.

The full survey report, including generational breakdowns and additional data on packaging formats and AI-assisted wine research (used disproportionately by Millennials, followed by Gen Z), is free to Wine Market Council members alongside a recording of the webinar.

“We Didn’t Want to Greenwash Our Way Through Life” | Tasting Room Manager Camille Cherry on Why Her Family’s Winery, MAHA, Has Always Been Certified Organic and Is Now Regenerative Organic

The Napa Valley Grapegrowers’ final event in the four part series of organic education month (July) hosted a conversation with certification experts from ROA and CCOF, along with a Paso winery.

At the closing session in the Napa Valley Grapegrowers’ organic series event held in late July at COPIA in Napa, Paso Robles based Camille Cherry from Villa Creek and MAHA (left) talks about her family’s certification journey with organic certifiers Alania Lindquist of Regenerative Organic Alliance (center) and Jessie Beckett Parr (right) from CCOF.

See this post on Substack for photos. 

Question | Tell us why did you all decide to be organic, and then what led you to be regenerative organic?

We have been farming organically since the very beginning. We acquired our estate property, MAHA in 2001 when it was a organically farmed walnut orchard. And organic has always been the pillar of how we live.

Growing up, my parents always bought organic produce, acquiring the the cleanest possible products that we could consume, and so when it came time to plant our vineyard, we farmed always with the attention of being certified. There’s a lot of greenwashing these days, and getting that third-party certification just helped solidify what we’re doing, and it lets the consumers know that we are farming the way that we say that we’re farming, without having to greenwash our way through life.

Question from Audience | What does that [greenwashing] mean?

[Greenwashing means pretending to be green when you are not}.

By having the third-party certification, you get an inspection once a year. You have to keep methodical records of everything that you’re doing, all of the inputs, whether it be a compost lay down or spraying something in the vineyard.

In my experience, there’s a lot of wine brands that are out there that say they’re doing something, but you drive through in the spring and everything is yellow. It has been sprayed out with some sort of glyphosate product, even though they’re saying that they’re farming organically.

Being able to have that [organic] certification is letting the consumer know that we are actually doing what we say we are doing. We’re not just saying that we’re doing it and doing something else. It’s just kind of solidifying what we are as a brand, and it is who we are.

So false advertising is greenwashing?

Yes, pretending to be green.

Inside an ROC Tasting Room | What Do Consumers Want to Know?

Question | Camille, can you talk about managing your tasting room and a lot of your consumer-facing work? Tell us about your consumer research and what people assume when they walk in, and how the different labels that you carry–organic and now ROC–change that conversation for folks.

Camille | Probably about a quarter of the people that walk into the tasting room find us because they’re searching for wine that is certified [organic or regenerative organic], or they’re looking to make a change in how they consume wine.

I think in the general population, eating organic has been around for decades, and a lot of general consumers don’t, or haven’t in the past, put that same consideration into what they’re drinking.

Over the last five or six years, people are getting to realize, oh, ‘there’s a lot of stuff that goes into conventionally farmed wine,’ and whether that’s in the vineyard application or in the cellar… and the health benefits that people may or may not feel when they’re drinking an organic wine versus a non-organic wine have kind of changed the general mindset of the consumer, so they’re starting to look for organic wine as opposed to just picking a pretty label off the shelf, and they’re putting more thought into what they’re consuming on the beverage side of things.

Jessie | So it sounds like people are seeking you out…they’re coming to find you. Yeah. That’s great. That’s what we want. We want people to seek you out.

I’d love to pivot into Camille and talk about the trade-offs when you’re thinking about certification. It sounds like you all started as organic, but when you’re going into our ROC, what did you weigh? Cost, increased labor costs, timeline, yield. You know, how did you kind of progress through that journey and in deciding how far to go? What were the main barriers to entry?

Camille | I think barriers are always on a sliding scale depending on how you’re farming and what size your production is, and for us, it there weren’t really any barriers. Honestly, we’ve basically been practicing all of these things already. [The vineyard and winery were Demeter certified biodynamic for years].

I think the biggest part that was that’s created the biggest struggle is the paperwork. My mom was the one who who filled out the application, and it took probably the better part of nine months. We are a small-scale, family-owned and operated team. There are seven of us total, and we cover tasting room, office, vineyard, and cellar. And when you have a limited amount of time, based on what you already have to do, that super intensive application can kind of be prohibitive, but in the long run, it’s worth it.

Jessie | What surprised you or your parents as they were transitioning towards regenerative organic certification? Like, was there anything in the process we were like ‘Didn’t expect that to happen.’ Sounds like the paperwork. But beyond that, what surprised you about the process? It could be biological, too. It doesn’t have to be about the certification itself.

Camille | Yeah, I think what shocked us the most was how quickly things changed. We farm with the idea that we’re just borrowing this land from future generations, and we want to be able to leave it in a better position than we found it.

When we implemented no-till farming, for instance, and utilizing the cover crop, which then slows down the water runoff, and which increases the water absorption. That also and then, as Jason [Haas of Tablas Creek] was talking about the soil temperature and having during our extreme heat waves that we see in Paso–having the vines be more resilient when it comes to extreme changes–I think that how quickly that changed the wine. Like we have a block of Carignane that is diseased with red blotch, and that specific block, the year that we changed over, it was the cleanest fruit that came off the property that entire vintage. So I think it was amazing how quickly everything became more resilient once we fully implemented all of the practices.

Alania | I just wanted to respond to the record keeping challenge that you expressed, and this is definitely something that’s hurt. People get paperwork fatigue, and we’re constantly looking at ways to help improve that aspect of our certification. One of the things that occurred to me when you were saying that is that that’s really the meat of this work, and that’s where the story of how you’re applying the regenerative practices is really happening.

There’s definitely some good juice in there that you can leverage as your storytelling as well…What are we doing? How is that changing every year? So it’s kind of a fun part, too. Not saying paperwork is fun, but like there’s like good nuggets in there.

Camille | Oh, I just had a memory come back to me.

My brother has always been a very enthusiastic ornithologist, and one of the parts of the application for ROC is tracking migratory birds and migratory critters that come through your property. And I think my brother had quite a blast tracking all of the birds that that come through the property, and that now we’ve been certified since 2022, he’s kept on with that process, that practice of bird watching.

See this post on Substack for photos. See the photo of Henri here on Substack. CAPTION Camille Cherry’s brother Henri Cherry pouring at the Mindset conference in June pouring the family’s Clairette Blanche

He now leads a once a month bird watching hike around the property, which I think is kind of cool that we get to incorporate the benefits of farming this specific way and showing people, ‘oh hey, there’s this migratory bird that is only here for three weeks out of the year, but we didn’t used to see it, and now we do.’ And being able to just kind of see those super cool, the critters and the various native plants that might crop up now is really fun to see.

Jessie | So ROC has bronze, silver, and gold tiers. Can you talk to us about a reasonable entry point for a grower that’s just starting out?

Alania | So the idea behind the tiers is to make the certification accessible and meet you where you’re at, and encourage you to continue to improve along the way.

Looking at a practice like rotational cropping, for example, or cover cropping. For the bronze level, you might only have three [cover crop] species required, and at the silver level, five species, and then at the gold level, it’s like 10 to 15 species.

Another factor is how much cover crop is being left in the vineyard. At the gold level, it’s 100% year-round coverage. Whereas bronze, I think, it’s maybe more 25 to 50%.

Jessie | For somebody who’s already certified organic, because there’s a bunch of growers here [at the event] that are already certified organic…Roughly, how does how long does the process of getting into ROC take?

Alania | Some organic growers are already incorporating a lot of these practices into their operations already, and so that’s going to be as simple as submitting your application to the Regenerative Organic Alliance.

We are going to review the application, and then we’re going to send it over to your certifying body of choice. They’re going to review it and then reach out to schedule an audit.

Ideally, you’re able to bundle your organic and regenerative organic audits together, so that auditors are coming to the property once.

I think that our estimated timelines to achieve from the time of application to receiving your certification is between three and nine months. But it depends. If you’re having to kind of start from scratch–conventional organic–you’re going to need to incorporate some practices. It might take you a little more time.

Jessie | So, Camille, just back to the tasting room experience. We’re trying to thread the needle here between organic and regenerative organic, and find out what will work for this audience as they’re exploring their pathways.

So, how do you describe the difference between organic and regenerative organic in a couple sentences to somebody who’s just coming in to drink wine? They’re just there to drink wine.

Camille | My basic tasting room spiel is organic.

The base elements are no synthetics, whether that is herbicides or pesticides, and then with regenerative, you’re throwing in soil health, social fairness, and animal welfare.

And from that point, we then get into mostly the soil health aspect of things, the no-till, using cover crops, crimping to help replenish the soil, creating a nice batch of organic material that then lowers the soil temp, increases water retention, all of that good stuff.

Jessie | And do people usually lean in wanting more, or do their eyes glaze over?

Camille | They do. I’ve been working in the tasting room since I was 18…But being able to kind of read the guests in the tasting room and whether or not they’re engaged in wanting to know more versus a a couple that walks in that’s on their third date and they decided to come up from LA to do a weekend in Paso and they only want to talk to themselves.

It’s a fine line between educating the guests that come in, and also ensuring that they have a good time because in this wacky world of wine, you want everything to be enjoyed, whether it’s wine or blending the lines of enjoyment and education.

Question | Well, I have a question: when you’re sharing your practices and some of the concepts of farming on your property as you’re tasting wine, how are people connecting those things? Or how are you messaging the connection between the way that you’re growing grapes and how the wine tastes?

Camille | Kind of a hard question to answer. Every vintage is different. Mother Nature is a very fickle business partner, and so whatever like every vintage is going to show different things in the bottle, and so it’s kind of hard to to explain to a consumer what you might taste differently. Every palate is different, so it’s hard to pinpoint one specific thing that might that they might pick up.

Wine is all very vintage specific, it’s site specific, and it’s bottle specific.

My dad likes to say ‘there’s no bad wine. There’s only bad bottles of it,’ and so taking that same concept into how the wine is perceived based on its farming practices, if that makes sense.

Question | You said the words “red blotch’, and everybody’s going to want to know what was the practice you changed that made the red blotch disease pressure less?

Camille | I think it really came down to the soil and the soil health and the root health.

Question | Right, but you’ve been farming biodynamically and certified for a long time... So, what changed?

Camille | What changed was going from discing the vineyard rows to mowing and crimping instead. And I don’t know the science behind why the red blotch toned itself down, but from what I’ve observed, there’s something that’s happening underground that made the vines a little bit happier.

They’re less stressed during the heat spikes, which is when our vines tend to show their the red blotch the most. They do tend to shut down sooner, but the fruit itself is cleaner. It’s cleaner and higher yield.

Alania | I just wanted to add on. This is somewhat anecdotal. I was recently at Bedrock Vineyards in Sonoma Valley, and we were looking at vines planted in the late 1800s. And when they did tissue analysis on these vines, they found that they basically carried every pathogen and virus that you could imagine, but they weren’t expressing that because of the resiliency and the immunity that was actually in the vine. So maybe there’s something to that.